Changes for Androids

[Mado]

To keep things a bit more organized, I'm going to have separate topics for all of the new ideas.
So far for Androids we have:
They will not gain any bonuses while wearing Weighted Clothing
They will not be able to self-train
They will not be detectable through Scouters or Detect Powerlevel

And these are things I was thinking of...
Start their Absorb technique at 50%, but allow them to upgrade this up to 100% through a series of Android-only quests.
Have them start with a Ki Absorb technique. This would give them a 15% chance to absorb a ki blast aimed at them, which would also be upgradeable through their race-specific quests. Also, I still like the idea of having it add to both base and current powerlevel. Maybe have it start out at only being able to convert 30% of the energy absorbed into their powerlevel, but allow it to be upgraded.

That's all I can remember right now, post your additions/modifications.

[Ryujin]

I like the idea of having the ki absorb be upgradeable from a 15% chance to absorb, up to a 25 or 30% chance (but no more than that, so dodge is still a viable option if you're stronger) and having it start at only absorbing 25-50% of the blast and being able to get it upgraded to 100%.

[Epyon]

I don't think androids should gain a bonus for fighting (ie. the 10% for winning a fight) and so that way the only PL they would gain would be absorbing the power of others. If this were to happen I think absorb could still start at the 60% it is now.

[Reno]

Well since you are trying to make androids more realistic...I have to throw this out there...
Would a sensu bean really heal a robot?
Would resting even heal a robot?
Do robots go to "heaven" when they die?

[Epyon]

Well since you are trying to make androids more realistic...I have to throw this out there...
Would a sensu bean really heal a robot?
Would resting even heal a robot?
Do robots go to "heaven" when they die?

I agree. Someone had mentioned earlier they should have a recharge time or something like that.

And I forgot to say in my last post that I don't like absorbed PL should be added to current at all. Ki absorption, yes, but not when you're absorbing a defeated body. It might've happened in the show, but for the sake of fairness it shouldn't be done here. No one else gets it, and if something is dead when you absorb it, they have no current PL, so why should yours go up? Maybe if 'droids went around absorbing opponents who were still alive they'd get some added to their current PL.

[Reno]

Yeah, the whole "absorbing a dead opponet" has never made much sence to me either, but it was really the only way to incorporate it into the game.
In the show we see the androids 19/20 grab ahold of their enemy when they are still alive, and absorb their power.

Oh, did you guys talk about having an absorb move that let's you learn the opponets moves. Didn't see mention of this yet, was it scraped?

[TheRAGER]

Well since you are trying to make androids more realistic...I have to throw this out there...
Would a sensu bean really heal a robot?
Would resting even heal a robot?
Do robots go to "heaven" when they die?

Reno for shame... I thought you knew better...
17 and 18 (and cell) all ahd real flesh and could bleed. sure it was man-made blood, but blood none the less.
Also remember that 18 has a kid!! and im pretty sure they didnt build it.

These androids are bio-genetic beings.

16 was more of a 'robot' Im not sure about 19 but 20 was part human

[Reno]

17 and 18 can't absorb....Trunks claims "they don't need to...they have unlimited energy" or something like that. I have always considered the androids of PM to be of 19's design. He looked pure robotic to me...his hands get ribbed off and you see circuits, and his head as well.
Also, I beleive android 20 says that he knows all about the sensu beans, but he never uses them himself. Why? You would think if an evil doctors mission was to destroy goku and the people of earth, and he knew about the restoring power of the sensu beans, he would have got himself some. If you remember, he let's the Z fighters use beans on their friends. The only reason for this that I can think of is that he wants to them to be healed, so he can steal more energy from them.

[TheRAGER]

17 and 18 can't absorb....Trunks claims "they don't need to...they have unlimited energy" or something like that. I have always considered the androids of PM to be of 19's design. He looked pure robotic to me...his hands get ribbed off and you see circuits, and his head as well.
Also, I beleive android 20 says that he knows all about the sensu beans, but he never uses them himself. Why? You would think if an evil doctors mission was to destroy goku and the people of earth, and he knew about the restoring power of the sensu beans, he would have got himself some. If you remember, he let's the Z fighters use beans on their friends. The only reason for this that I can think of is that he wants to them to be healed, so he can steal more energy from them.

Your right about 19, but what I meant was does he too have some human part like 20 did. I personally dont think he did. but interesting to think about.

I always felt that PMs androids were more like 17/18 mixed with cell. Only Cell had the ability to absorb bodies. and only recently did anyone have the power to absorb ki attacks.

[Mado]

Yeah, the whole "absorbing a dead opponet" has never made much sence to me either, but it was really the only way to incorporate it into the game.
In the show we see the androids 19/20 grab ahold of their enemy when they are still alive, and absorb their power.

Oh, did you guys talk about having an absorb move that let's you learn the opponets moves. Didn't see mention of this yet, was it scraped?

Yeah, I forgot about that. I wanted that to be an upgrade or something, though. I think it'd be good if Androids could gain a technique that allowed them a certain % chance to learn the moves of an absorbed opponent.

[ville616]

I say keep them more robotic and limit their absorbtion to certain situations ex: stealing energy to recharge,small to medium ki blast low power special moves I think they should be limited how much they can absorb from ki blast. lets say a player unleashes all his power into a blast in attempt to destroy the android and that players power level at the time is double of that of the android. Then trying to absorb that much power shouldn't they be destroyed due to the fact of trying to absorb that much power like an overload of sort.

[Ryujin]

I already said if an energy attack does as much damage as the android's base PL, it shouldn't be able to be absorbed.

Androids do absorb people when they're alive, we just say you have to 'kill' them first because it is the only real way to incorporate it in the game. Just think of it as killing them when you absorb them.

I see no reason to not have an absorb ki ability as long as the chances of success or nullifying damage are less than dodge.

[Mado]

Hmm...I'm starting to think we should decide which type of Android we are trying to emulate here, and stick strictly to that model's abilities.

[Reno]

I'm not sure what the original idea for who the Androids were based on in PM was. May not have been much thought put into it at all. I don't think it matters really. We can always change it now to have it make sence or work well with the game. I always pictured in my head when an android absorbs at the end of a fight, he is doing it with the red dots on the palms of his hands like 19/20. This gives me another idea...just like saiyan/duugos can lose the use of their tail, perhaps an android could have his absorbing move disabled. In the show we see Vegeta rip off 19's absorbing hands, then finish him off with an energy attack (Big bang?). There could also be a way of upgrading the android and getting his absorbers back.

The shitty ideas I suggested for the androids earlier in this topic weren't ones I neccesarly wanted to applied, but since the refs wanted to make them androids more realistic, I figured they shouldn't pussy out half way. haha

[Ryujin]

I don't particularly care how closely they resemble any single android on the show. With like 6 different variations on the show, ours can be its own variation. From what I understand, the reason for the changes was for balance and new ideas, not to make it more like the show. The ki absorb ability is a cool idea that doesn't necessarily overpower the android as long as dodging is still a better option for totally avoiding damage. The reason for no gains from fighting/training/sparring was both to make them more unique and to balance them with the new system. With fighting being so much more useful, a 60% absorb is much better than it was when compared to the gains saiyans, half saiyans, and nameks got from training and meditating.

[Reno]

I like that every race is unique....doesn't make much sence to even have differnt races if they were all basically the same. I am wondering if the androids are going to be too different than other races though. Which even then, is not a bad thing.
Honestly, I hate the idea of android upgrades...I don't know why really. It makes sence, I soppose. I can just remember back in the old days looking at crappy DBZ RPG's and seeing all the android upgrades on their shop page. It made me laugh.

[Ryujin]

I was seeing it as the same as quests for Nameks and Humans getting racial moves, maybe saiyans have SSJ or saiyan pod quests, duugos having some kind of racial discovery quests giving generic items/money, etc. I didn't see it as an android only thing. Then there could be big generic quests for bases, ships, armor (like cloud suggested), etc. The best part is we'd have more time for all of this because the sagas won't be rushed by players with huge PLs in the first 2 months, lol.

[Epyon]

Hmm...I'm starting to think we should decide which type of Android we are trying to emulate here, and stick strictly to that model's abilities.

I feel like we should just keep going with what we've got. I like how our androids are now and where they're headed. Revamping just seems silly. If you care how much about what they're modeled after, let's just assume Gero is taking what he thinks works best out of the previous models for testing or something.

[Mado]

I feel like we should just keep going with what we've got. I like how our androids are now and where they're headed. Revamping just seems silly. If you care how much about what they're modeled after, let's just assume Gero is taking what he thinks works best out of the previous models for testing or something.

Sounds good to me:)

So are we set on what we've got for Androids so far? Or do we still need to tweak them?

[Epyon]

Sounds good to me:)

So are we set on what we've got for Androids so far? Or do we still need to tweak them?

What exactly have you decided to use? I like the changes listed in the beginning, but I also think androids should have a unique way to regain their PL that is shorter than resting, but they also can't use sensu beans. If this were to happen, I think they'd also need some technique that could be used in battle to up their PL so that they won't be bested simply because some human or saiyan is running around with a dozen sensus.

[Ryujin]

Currently for androids:
-No gains other than absorb
-Absorb 60% of enemies PL after winning a battle
-Ki absorb can absorb enemy ki attacks--details not hammered out yet
-All the moves they already started with
-Can't be detected with detect PL or scouters


Somebody proposed a one day 'recharge' to get their PL back. I'm fine with either this or them getting to use sensus. If they can't use sensus, I think their ki absorb move should definitely be more powerful than I was thinking. In that case I wouldn't mind it being as likely to be successful as dodge. This would work out well, because at the point when other players are getting sensus should be around the same time they're learning ki attacks, so both sensus and ki absorb would be accessible around the same time. Although if players can amass enough sensus, that will most definitely be much more useful than androids' recharge or ki absorb.

[Mado]

Currently for androids:
-No gains other than absorb
-Absorb 60% of enemies PL after winning a battle
-Ki absorb can absorb enemy ki attacks--details not hammered out yet
-All the moves they already started with
-Can't be detected with detect PL or scouters


Somebody proposed a one day 'recharge' to get their PL back. I'm fine with either this or them getting to use sensus. If they can't use sensus, I think their ki absorb move should definitely be more powerful than I was thinking. In that case I wouldn't mind it being as likely to be successful as dodge. This would work out well, because at the point when other players are getting sensus should be around the same time they're learning ki attacks, so both sensus and ki absorb would be accessible around the same time. Although if players can amass enough sensus, that will most definitely be much more useful than androids' recharge or ki absorb.

It was Rikter that proposed the one day recharge idea, but it left them in a weakened state. I like this idea, and if they can't use Sensu Beans, if they're in a fight with someone using ki blasts against them...it could be even better than having Sensus.

[Ryujin]

I disagree. Anything for ki absorb that's less than 40 or 50% chance is going to be worse than sensus. Having a 1 in 5 chance to absorb ki isn't nearly as useful as being able to take a sensu. Granted, its free instead of having to buy or be a drop.

If we do that I would propose Ki absorb start at 20%. Every two times more powerful than your opponent it goes up 10%. Its upgradeable to 60 or 75% chance. It should be as hard to get to 60% as it is to become a master in akido. This would keep it in line with dodging once you get forms, but keep it useful vs sensus. By the time you got to 60% other players would have at least partially learned some forms and have sensu beans. I think that this easily justified by other players being able to have a master in akido (not sure if I should say the numbers for it here) and sensus combined. It might not even be as powerful.

[Reno]

In another post you guys are talking about removing sensu beans from shops, or limiting the numbers you can buy...So when that's all figured out, take that into account when figuring out the absorb stuff. G'luck!

[Mado]

In another post you guys are talking about removing sensu beans from shops, or limiting the numbers you can buy...So when that's all figured out, take that into account when figuring out the absorb stuff. G'luck!

This is what I was just about to say. With a base chance of 20% (1 in 5) to successfully absorb a ki attack to heal themselves, I think it's pretty fair given that Sensus will be much harder to come by.

[Ryujin]

Which is why it should be very upgradable, so by the time its really good, oher players may have more sensus and/or fighting forms.

[Reno]

Can androids right now, or in the next round, learn the move Detect Powerlevel? Scouters and the androids detecting move don't work the same way as detect pl does. If you won't be allowed to detect pl androids, I don't see why an android could detect pl you. They should stick to their version that works similar to a scouter.

This part's about duugos, not androids:
I think it's about time we let duugos learn detect powerlevel. They are living things, they can learn it. I think, atleast in this round (Can't speak for next round), that duugos don't have any major advantages when compared to saiyans or nameks. I can remember duugos starting at 10k powerlevel. We gave them the crutch that they couldn't learn detect powerlevel. Then they were lowered to 2k powerlevel. Next round, I think they should be able to learn detect pl just like normal. If the refs feel this makes them overpowered, which I honestly think they will still be very underpowered, they could come up with something to even things out.

[Rikter]

Uh...yea there is alot of talk about androids apparently. Basically I'm thinking as players get stronger and acquire more items...Dr. Gero or his supercomputer should dial up the androids memory bank or something and send it a message talking about upgrades and possible locations where the labs might be. In the show, Gero's computer did everything after his death. It was programmed to release 16, 17, 18, and cell if you remember correctly...so why couldn't it be like any other event occurring in PM? It would make the androids as unique and give them a shot to learn race specific moves like namekians or humans or whatever. I don't know, I'm tired and throwing out ideas.

[Ryujin]

Androids can detect PL you because they were designed with that ability, just like scouters. Scouters were designed to detect PLs of flesh and blood beings, designed by the tuffles/saiyans. Detect PL is a move that detects the living ki energy of a being, hence it can't tell you how powerful a tank, turret, or android is.

[Reno]

Right, androids should have the detect move they have. Forget what it's called. No problems with that here. But what about the actual move Detect Powerlevel? That should be an organic only move.

Don't give up on ideas Rikter! Good or completey stupid, just blurt them out as you think of them. That's what I do. ^_^

[Ryujin]

Why would they want detect powerlevel...?

[Cloud]

He's arguing that Duugos should be able to learn the move Detect PL, because with current rules they cannot. I think the argument itself was lost in translation.

[Reno]

I was wondering if androids could learn Detect Powerlevel. I always had funny results when using my scouters, figured the androids version of detect worked the same.
I was suggesting androids not be able to learn Detect Powerlevel, but of course start with their version like they do now.

I was also trying to argue that duugos should be allowed to learn Detect Powerlevel like all the other living races.

[EVOESI]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I think I should point out that while 60% sounds like a lot for a fight gain, we should remember its very hard to get into fights all the time. I have a very hard time finding people to fight so while I gain huge gains every once in awhile, there are long periods of time where I simply don't gain anything. This means that androids need to either start with a much higher power level or they need to gain much more from combat.

Also, if androids can no longer heal every 3 days like everybody else and might not be able to use sensu beans AND face long periods of no combat in which they have a 15% chance to heal whatever % depending on their opponent, doesn't that mean android players will almost always be injured to some degree? Perhaps there should be engineers around or some kind of healing item (nanobots?) or perhaps even a "self repair mode" that emulates resting. This is very important because no healing is going to leave androids very very handicapped.

I like the idea of an in-combat absorb attack. I can't suggest anything on how it should work though.

Android upgrades is a fun idea. Going along with the engineers from before or yes, there could even be a central Android hub (which becomes interesting because perhaps then all androids should start there instead of at the normal starting point which leads to the idea that perhaps starting points should be specific to a race?) though said hub would need to be instinctual (you automatically know where it is once that message comes in) or a starting point (as mentioned above). Android specific quests would be relatively useless if the poor android never finds his way home.

On the note of quests, I feel I should mention that not all quests should scale completely. Why should all fights be just barely under your maximum capacity (another reason androids need to be able to heal)? There should be some areas that are just plain too difficult for you and others that become easier as you become powerful.

That's all I can think of for now.

[Cloud]

Perhaps a self repair mode that takes 36 hours, half the time of normal resting. If they can't use sensu beans and can't train I don't see the problem in resting time being shortened. If you want to nerf it a bit, you could make it so that an android can't move in that time period.

[EVOESI]

Which really would be a huge nerf. As I pointed out, finding fights can be tough sometimes.

[Cloud]

Also, I think it's silly for absorb to be at 60% instead of 100%. Might as well absorb the whole powerlevel of your victim and it has to result in death. So a friend can't exploit it with another friend without any consequence.

[Ryujin]

They die no matter what, its just your gain from it is 60%.

And I like Rikter's idea of using Dr. Gero/the red ribbon army as a means for android quests/upgrades. Like he said, they can get transmissions from anywhere, so starting planet won't matter.

[Epyon]

Also, I think it's silly for absorb to be at 60% instead of 100%. Might as well absorb the whole powerlevel of your victim and it has to result in death. So a friend can't exploit it with another friend without any consequence.

I think that Mado suggested they have upgrades that get there, which sounds good to me. Also, someone suggested it start at 50%, which I think is a mistake. It shouldn't be lowered by any means.

And we talked on the old forum about race-specific quests and starting points and I think the idea was well-received, so it's a possibility and sounds like a good plan to me.

[Ryujin]

I believe the upgrades were for KI ABSORB for absorbing ki attacks in a battle.

[Epyon]

And these are things I was thinking of...
Start their Absorb technique at 50%, but allow them to upgrade this up to 100% through a series of Android-only quests.
Have them start with a Ki Absorb technique. This would give them a 15% chance to absorb a ki blast aimed at them, which would also be upgradeable through their race-specific quests. Also, I still like the idea of having it add to both base and current powerlevel. Maybe have it start out at only being able to convert 30% of the energy absorbed into their powerlevel, but allow it to be upgraded.

That's all I can remember right now, post your additions/modifications.

Nope. But I still think it shouldn't start at only 50%.

[Ryujin]

Oh, my mistake. I'm just claiming he's retarded then =]

I'm disowning him as a brother now.

[Mado]

I think we should have their absorb start at at least 60%, maybe up to 80%? Then allow them to upgrade it to a possible 100% through Android-specific quests. Have them start out with Ki Absorb, giving them a 20% chance to absorb a ki blast aimed at them, and letting it add 50% to their base/current. This could be upgradeable to giving them a max of an 85% chance and letting it add 80% to their base/current?

[Mado]

I think we should have their absorb start at at least 60%, maybe up to 80%? Then allow them to upgrade it to a possible 100% through Android-specific quests. Have them start out with Ki Absorb, giving them a 20% chance to absorb a ki blast aimed at them, and letting it add 50% to their base/current. This could be upgradeable to giving them a max of an 85% chance and letting it add 80% to their base/current?

No thoughts/opinions? Are we set on what we're doing for Androids next round?

[Epyon]

No thoughts/opinions? Are we set on what we're doing for Androids next round?

Sounds like a plan to me, but I definitely think getting the ki absorb upgraded should be more difficult that the standard absorb. Has there been a decision on the use of sensus and a recharge for androids?

[Ryujin]

I was of the opinion it made more sense to just let androids use sensus. Not completely consistent with the other decisions, but it leads to less complication and one less thing to worry about balance for.

I have a feeling that getting your ki absorb upgraded will be at least as difficult as getting different forms. And if anyone here has gotten above brown belt, they know it takes some time.

[Mado]

I was of the opinion it made more sense to just let androids use sensus. Not completely consistent with the other decisions, but it leads to less complication and one less thing to worry about balance for.

I have a feeling that getting your ki absorb upgraded will be at least as difficult as getting different forms. And if anyone here has gotten above brown belt, they know it takes some time.

I agree. In the name of simplicity, let's just let Androids use Sensu Beans like everyone else, same with any new healing items we come up with.

[Mado]

I was wondering if androids could learn Detect Powerlevel. I always had funny results when using my scouters, figured the androids version of detect worked the same.
I was suggesting androids not be able to learn Detect Powerlevel, but of course start with their version like they do now.

I was also trying to argue that duugos should be allowed to learn Detect Powerlevel like all the other living races.

I already make it so Androids can't learn Detect Powerlevel. And I'd have to agree that just because Freeza didn't know how to do it in the show, that doesn't mean that his entire race wouldn't be able to learn how to do it.

[Rikter]

Touche'

[Mado]

Touche'

I like the avi, not being too discrete, eh? :)