Changing Death

[Mado]

I was thinking about this at the beginning of the round when a few people died and got Kaiouken and Spirit Bomb so early on...something needs to change. My original thought was to make people have to find a 'golden' sensu or something...make it extremely hard to get your powerlevel back up. But with the auto-training and everything, this would be hard to implement. Maybe make it so that unless you have an alignment of at least +5, you can't go to King Kai's? I would also like to come up with a 'Hell' for players with an alignment of -5 or higher, but I haven't seen any dbz episodes with hell in them, so I'm not sure how it would be implemented. Ideas?

[Cloud]

When Goku fell off Snake Way, he landed in hell. Or in Funimations version, it was called Hall For Infinite Losers. HFIL. See what they did there?

[Mado]

When Goku fell off Snake Way, he landed in hell. Or in Funimations version, it was called Hall For Infinite Losers. HFIL. See what they did there?

Right, but I want evil players to be able to accomplish something in hell like good players would on King Kai's. Obviously it can't be exactly the same, but there needs to be some reward I would think, just as there is one for a good player.

[Epyon]

Right, but I want evil players to be able to accomplish something in hell like good players would on King Kai's. Obviously it can't be exactly the same, but there needs to be some reward I would think, just as there is one for a good player.

This would imply that there needs to be something for the people in the middle as well, who can't go to heaven or hell. I never watched all the way through DBGT, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people in hell during the series, and maybe you could meet major villains from the series and spar and learn things with them or take over hell. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.

[Ryujin]

This would imply that there needs to be something for the people in the middle as well, who can't go to heaven or hell. I never watched all the way through DBGT, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people in hell during the series, and maybe you could meet major villains from the series and spar and learn things with them or take over hell. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.

Why don't you try that right now? =]

[Epyon]

Why don't you try that right now? =]

I'm not evil enough to go to hell. Maybe I'll work on that and let you know how it goes.

[Ryujin]

Goku wasn't evil, and he managed to make his way down there.

As far as I see it, if you're smart and strong enough there's a good chance you can figure out how to access many areas in the other world. It all depends on what you try and what Mado allows.

[Reno]

I thought somewhere in the Buu saga saga you see Cell and Frieza locked up in a cage, in Hell. They spend their days sitting around doing nothing. They were very evil though, so that's why I think they had the extra security for them.

King kai invites the Ginyu Force (Minus Capain Ginyu) to his planet to spar with the good guys. King kai doesn't teach them kaioken or spirit bomb, but he doesn't teach the good guys that either. He only teaches Goku, and Goku doesn't share them...Just like Instant Transmission....Goku's an asshole.

I don't see how you are currently working the death system. When I come back with half powerlevel and "only" get that back by a sensu bean...Would I come back at 1,000 out of 2,000 powerlevel? Wouldn't resting heal me also? Or do I came back at 1,000 out of 1,000 and you store away my extra 1,000 pl for when I eat a bean?

You can let the other world ref decide on whatever he wants really...as long as everyone in the game is following the same thing, I don't care what goes on there.

I was wondering if you like the death rules, Mado. I think changes could be done, but not sure how.
5 free deaths before you start losing 5% of your pl? Kinda crazy. I was thinking you could start the losing pl part on the very first death, no "free" deaths, and totaly get rid of the sensu bean thing to counter this. Come back at full powerlevel, minus whatever % you lost at the end of your base pl. You should still be gaining powerlevel. Maybe jack up the % you lose each time, although it does seem alright now. 5%, 10%, 15%, so on.

[Ryujin]

I second Reno's post.

[Epyon]

I don't see how you are currently working the death system. When I come back with half powerlevel and "only" get that back by a sensu bean...Would I come back at 1,000 out of 2,000 powerlevel? Wouldn't resting heal me also? Or do I came back at 1,000 out of 1,000 and you store away my extra 1,000 pl for when I eat a bean?

Pretty sure you come back at half what your max PL is and there's no way you can get it to full except to eat a sensu bean.


I was wondering if you like the death rules, Mado. I think changes could be done, but not sure how.
5 free deaths before you start losing 5% of your pl? Kinda crazy. I was thinking you could start the losing pl part on the very first death, no "free" deaths, and totaly get rid of the sensu bean thing to counter this. Come back at full powerlevel, minus whatever % you lost at the end of your base pl. You should still be gaining powerlevel. Maybe jack up the % you lose each time, although it does seem alright now. 5%, 10%, 15%, so on.
If we're going to do this, I think it should start at 10% loss and then go to 20%, etc. On top of that, I think that the PL gains from death should have diminishing returns, because the training you get there is still really intense.

[Reno]

Yes Epyon, that's what the rules say.
"You are allowed to stay one week there, after that week is up, you either are wished back, or you start over again with half the powerlevel you had at the end of your time, and the only way to get it back is to eat a Sensu Bean."

But how is this actually be done by the refs? If I finish my week at 2,000 pl and am brought back at 1k out of 2k...Not training for 3 days should make the auto-training system consider me rested and put me back at 2k out of 2k.
Maybe he has an option to turn off resting? That would suck, comming back at half powerlevel, no items or money, and you can't rest? G'luck!

[Mado]

Pretty sure you come back at half what your max PL is and there's no way you can get it to full except to eat a sensu bean.

This.


If we're going to do this, I think it should start at 10% loss and then go to 20%, etc. On top of that, I think that the PL gains from death should have diminishing returns, because the training you get there is still really intense.

I agree with increasing the penalty to 10%. Because you're going to gain a lot, so you'll really end up with a gain either way.

I still think there should be some sort of requirement for being taught Kaiouken and Spirit Bomb. Do you guys not like it being based off of alignment?

[Mado]

Yes Epyon, that's what the rules say.
"You are allowed to stay one week there, after that week is up, you either are wished back, or you start over again with half the powerlevel you had at the end of your time, and the only way to get it back is to eat a Sensu Bean."

But how is this actually be done by the refs? If I finish my week at 2,000 pl and am brought back at 1k out of 2k...Not training for 3 days should make the auto-training system consider me rested and put me back at 2k out of 2k.
Maybe he has an option to turn off resting? That would suck, comming back at half powerlevel, no items or money, and you can't rest? G'luck!

That's the point, since you come back with nothing, it's supposed to be hard to get a Sensu Bean to restore your health. But since most players have friends that are still alive...or some players are smart and store their items...it kind of defeats the "penalty" of death.

[Ryujin]

That's kind of the point... Lol.

I don't know how Matt's handling the resting thing, but assuming not too many people are dead at the same time it would be pretty easy to keep track of and if they haven't trained in a day or two, just change the trained date to 6 hours before what ever the current time is.

[Ryujin]

I still think there should be some sort of requirement for being taught Kaiouken and Spirit Bomb. Do you guys not like it being based off of alignment?

I don't care if there is an alignment involved for spirit bomb, but if there is for kaiouken evil players would need some HUGE boosts or additions to make it fair.

[Reno]

I know the fun game of earning a sensu before someone kills you again. ^_^
I was only wondering how it's being applied. I feel like a player could get away with resting.

Kai kai only teaching you Spirit Bomb or Kaioken if you had a certain alignment would make sence....but, I think the alignment numbers are stupid. I could bitch about them, but that's a little off topic.

I do think the good guys deserve more rewards from dying. Good guys control the next dimension. They punish the evil fighters by sending them to Hell.
When you're alive, being evil is a lot easier than being good, and it's a lot more rewarding. WTF? Being good is a joke, unless you just want to RP.

[Ryujin]

I have no problem with good characters getting bonuses over evil characters in death... But only good players getting kaiouken? That's a game ender for anyone evil.

I think next round will be better to be good, if the PLs are slowed down like they're supposed to then the NPCs/masters will be stronger than players for a good while, making it much more dangerous to be evil.

[AkuTenshi]

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Hell

There is all the info on hell. Good amount of info too, and it says all the people that were down there at one point. Make it easier to create a hell.

Should we define which types of characters are good, which are evil? Choosing an alignment when you join? Then there is less of a chance of "flopping" between the two alignments, allowing people to auto go to hell or heaven. This would also push people into doing certain actions during the game, which would allow for more open battles with people siding and greater catastrophes.

Or maybe you are right, maybe you need a +5 to go to king kai, and a -5 to go to Hell. Then anyone has the ability to go to either/or, but if they do not have such a high alignment, then they are simply stuck on snake way and the Other World Tourney.

This would mean you dont get the benefits of either place AND you cant get such powerful moves until later in the game when things are starting to pick up.

Just an idea.

[Mado]

I know the fun game of earning a sensu before someone kills you again. ^_^
I was only wondering how it's being applied. I feel like a player could get away with resting.

Kai kai only teaching you Spirit Bomb or Kaioken if you had a certain alignment would make sence....but, I think the alignment numbers are stupid. I could bitch about them, but that's a little off topic.

I do think the good guys deserve more rewards from dying. Good guys control the next dimension. They punish the evil fighters by sending them to Hell.
When you're alive, being evil is a lot easier than being good, and it's a lot more rewarding. WTF? Being good is a joke, unless you just want to RP.

Good point. I've made it a point that being evil is much easier than being good, so I agree with you...being good should have some wort of reward in the afterlife.

[Ryujin]

Make evil players go to hell, and good players go to King Kai. Good players can learn Spirit bomb and Kaiouken plus get the bonus from training with the extra gravity.

Evil players need some way to learn kaiouken, but they can't learn spirit bomb (which will be much more useful next round) and can only regularly train, no extra gravity.

This would make it even worse for evil players dying multiple times since they don't get a better PL gain.

I disagree with not being able to go anywhere if you die early on. Perhaps have people choose a base alignment of +/-2 which would then decide where they go, but can be changed still by the decisions they make while alive.

[Cloud]

Reno's post up there summed up what I wanted to say.

Currently, I'd be in a much better position had I gone evil rather than good. Good needs to have some benefits to it other than simply always doing the right thing. The afterlife would be one thing that would sort of even the odds.

[Rikter]

I don't think you guys understand good and evil...

-Good
You get the satisfaction and help of all the heros and townspeople and so on. No one looks down upon you and you don't have to worry about being caught by guards, heros, or just other players of good alignment.

-Evil
It pays off in the beginning and makes things alot easier when new, but if you fuck up...you're pretty screwed. I've had my run in with this, therefore, I turned to the good side of things. Cloud knows.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that there is a benefit to being good and evil. If you're ridiculously strong and you pick evil, its going to be hard to stop you but I guarantee a ref is going to slow you down somehow. If you're good and strong you have plenty of options on what you want to do. A ref may slow you down, but you will have friends to back you up. So I wouldn't think too hard on trying to change how good and evil effect the world of PM.

[Syaoran]

why should there be a way for evil players to learn kaioken? there are already race specific moves alignment specific isn that far off. also if you want to change people getting kaioken then why not make specific moves only learnable from its corrisponding master, and in the case of kaioken have king kai require a higher alignment before he'll even put you through a quest to learn it. Want alignment to matter more for death? have to be so good or so evil to be able to have the chance to learn from specific masters down there with different rewards on good and bad.
further more the entire idea of a ref slowing down evil players is in my mind stupid, i'm not saying let the evil players bend the rules or such but it shouldnt come down to the ref's having to slow down the evil players it should be a matter of the other players stopping them.

[Ryujin]

How would a regular master know someone's alignment unless they were doing things out in the open? If I covertly killed 50 people and nobody knew about it, it won't affect whether Goku wants to teach me. That's why he has quests killing bandits for him. Now, if you were killing townspeople in front of players and NPCs, that's a different story. I don't have a problem with masters in the otherworld teaching based on alignment, just assuming they can detect it or watch you while you're alive.

So... Good players get kaiouken as an alignment specific ability, and evil players get what...? Races have specific abilities meant to be useful as compared to other races. What do you get when one namek can learn a move that multiplies your PL but another Namek can't?? Sounds like madness to me, unless you have a solution in the form of a move they can learn in hell that is at least CLOSE to comparable to kaiouken. I can't think of a move that even comes close to a move that multiplies you PL, unless you want to give evil players an undodgable ki blast that does 500% damage and takes away 5% of their current PL?

[Epyon]

I don't think Kaioken should be alignment-specific. I was fighting bandits with it, and they're definitely evil. Besides, races with no transformation need a move like Kaioken to be able to keep up after the other races are transforming.

[Cloud]

The only way your alignment would come into play when learning Kaioken is you don't go to King Kai when you die if you're evil. It doesn't mean you could never learn Kaioken. There are other ways to learn the move than just from the master himself.

[Reno]

I was thinking about ways to weaken the move Kaioken. Right now, if you don't find kaioken somehow, it's unlikely you're going to beat someone that has it. Kaioken is so important.

We know kaioken puts a lot of strain on your body. We constantly see Goku totaly f'd after using it in the show. That's why you can't last more than 10 turns in it. Perhaps the 10 turns thing could be lowered because a lot of fights don't last long, but I don't think that's how the move should be weakened.
I was thinking something more like after you use kaioken, when you turn it off you lose a % of your max pl, but not permanently, so you would only lose current pl. If you use it for 1 turn, no penalty, if you use it for 2 turns, then 10% of your max pl is subtracted from your current. 3 turns would be 20%, so on. After 10 turns you would lose 90% of your powerlevel, if you used it for 11 turns you would die, like you would now, because you would lose 100% of your powerlevel. I don't know, these are just thoughts...

[Ryujin]

*likes Reno's idea*

[Epyon]

I third this motion. All in favor say 'Aye!'

[Dalun]

Hey all

My thoughts:

Heaven vs Hell - Why not have death just be like another world? You're stuck there for one week. You have the option to go to heaven or hell whether you're good/evil or Switzerland. Goku went to both. Let the character decide which one they're going to while they're on snake way.

Otherworld moves - Let King Kai's planet have the moves Kaioken and Spirit Bomb and let HFIL have two moves you could learn, that way it's a valid choice to decide which one you go to.

PL Gains in Death - In the series the characters always came back stronger after dying, however for most of them (with the exception of Krillin... poor guy) they only died once. Why not make it so the first time you die you gain X amount of PL, the 2nd time you gain say half of what you would gain training or nothing at all (so this way you have two chances to learn moves w/o much of a penalty). The third time you lose 2% max PL as well as missing out on training and the 4th time you lose more PL, etc. That way it makes it almost a quest to die once and learn some awesome moves, but anything more than that and it impedes your progression.

I had some alignment related comments but i'll post those in the alignment thread.

[Epyon]

PL Gains in Death - In the series the characters always came back stronger after dying, however for most of them (with the exception of Krillin... poor guy) they only died once. Why not make it so the first time you die you gain X amount of PL, the 2nd time you gain say half of what you would gain training or nothing at all (so this way you have two chances to learn moves w/o much of a penalty). The third time you lose 2% max PL as well as missing out on training and the 4th time you lose more PL, etc. That way it makes it almost a quest to die once and learn some awesome moves, but anything more than that and it impedes your progression.


A uniform gain for all players just isn't how PM works. Yes, you should come back stronger, but the fact is that it becomes a huge reward. We need something to offset the fact that you can come back without being wished back, because that's just not how it worked in DBZ. If you died, you stayed dead and in the other world until you got wished back or someone like the Kais were nice enough to let you go back to the real world to hang out for a bit.

[Dalun]

A uniform gain for all players just isn't how PM works. Yes, you should come back stronger, but the fact is that it becomes a huge reward. We need something to offset the fact that you can come back without being wished back, because that's just not how it worked in DBZ. If you died, you stayed dead and in the other world until you got wished back or someone like the Kais were nice enough to let you go back to the real world to hang out for a bit.

Very true. Maybe not a uniform gain should be in place, maybe it should be based on your racial stats. Or if you want to make it much bigger deal to die say you only get the gain in PL if someone wishes you back, otherwise you come back with 0 PL gain and you can't train at all for that week you were dead. I've only been playing this game for a month so I'm not sure how often the DBs are found and how that would affect everything.

[AkuTenshi]

Not being able to bring back your pl gain if you arent wished back is a good idea... i think that is closer to what should be done atleast.

As to how often the balls come back... they come back after so many weeks i think, but im not sure the exact ruling. Balls are hard to find in the game, but they come about if you spend time looking for them. I duno, i think that its a more viable solution.

Only problem with not being able to gain your pl if you die and arent wished back is... what about at the beginning of the game when some strong players go on rampages and kill all the weak players. this would suck for the weak players cause they die, dont get a pl bonus, and dont learn any moves cause their alignment isnt strong enough... i dunno, just rambling...

[Ryujin]

That's why we tried to make dying not a bad thing, is for that exact reason, Your first death shouldn't be bad IMO. And I hate the idea of having to wish them back for the gain. There's a good chance that will never happen in a round.

[Epyon]

That's why we tried to make dying not a bad thing, is for that exact reason, Your first death shouldn't be bad IMO. And I hate the idea of having to wish them back for the gain. There's a good chance that will never happen in a round.

I don't think the idea is that death should be bad, it's just that it shouldn't be a reward in the caliber that it is in its current state. Dying early on is just too good to make it negative in any fashion other than missing out on a week of updates on whatever planet you're on.

[Ryujin]

And dying later on with weighted clothes on and other items was horrible because you're getting a smaller gain AND lose your items that are on you. Next round training in the other world might be better than weight, as I'm not sure how gravity is affect gains now?? Is it working like weighted, where if your training gain is 20 and you're in 10% gravity your gaining 22, or is it like it is now where you're gaining 200? If its like weighted, then next round you'll be missing out on a week of possible fighting for a very small training gain. In that case, I don't see the need for nerfing the other world at all...

And, ummm, how does an android dying work? Do they go to the other world still? I don't have a problem if they do, but its a huge disadvantage for them since they'll get 0 PL gain for a week.

Maybe androids only die for a day, then their circuitry kicks back in and brings their life support back up? They die for a day the first time, then 2 days, then 3 days, etc. etc., but the first time they lose 5%, then 15%, 25%, 35%, etc. That way they're getting punished for dying too, but they don't miss out on being able to do anything. Of course they couldn't learn anything in the other world then, either.

[Mado]

I thought somewhere in the Buu saga saga you see Cell and Frieza locked up in a cage, in Hell. They spend their days sitting around doing nothing. They were very evil though, so that's why I think they had the extra security for them.

King kai invites the Ginyu Force (Minus Capain Ginyu) to his planet to spar with the good guys. King kai doesn't teach them kaioken or spirit bomb, but he doesn't teach the good guys that either. He only teaches Goku, and Goku doesn't share them...Just like Instant Transmission....Goku's an asshole.

I don't see how you are currently working the death system. When I come back with half powerlevel and "only" get that back by a sensu bean...Would I come back at 1,000 out of 2,000 powerlevel? Wouldn't resting heal me also? Or do I came back at 1,000 out of 1,000 and you store away my extra 1,000 pl for when I eat a bean?

You can let the other world ref decide on whatever he wants really...as long as everyone in the game is following the same thing, I don't care what goes on there.

I was wondering if you like the death rules, Mado. I think changes could be done, but not sure how.
5 free deaths before you start losing 5% of your pl? Kinda crazy. I was thinking you could start the losing pl part on the very first death, no "free" deaths, and totaly get rid of the sensu bean thing to counter this. Come back at full powerlevel, minus whatever % you lost at the end of your base pl. You should still be gaining powerlevel. Maybe jack up the % you lose each time, although it does seem alright now. 5%, 10%, 15%, so on.

You're right, Reno. I don't like the current death rules. I think it should be changed that after the first time dying it's 5% off of your base powerlevel, then 10%, etc. up to 50% max. I also think that unless your alignment is at +8 or higher that King Kai won't teach you Kaiouken or Spirit Bomb. Also, I'd like to change both of those moves so that they aren't teachable, only King Kai can teach you these techniques. And you're right, the Ginyu force were evil, yet they were still allowed to train on King Kai's planet, they just didn't learn any techniques. So we can make it so that anyone who dies, no matter their alignment, can go to King Kai's for training in the extra gravity, but unless your alignment is +8 or higher, he won't teach you Kaiouken or Spirit Bomb, and both of those moves are not teachable to others. Sound good/fair?

[AkuTenshi]

Maybe bad alignments start in hell, neutral (below +5) start on the snake road, and good (>+5) Start on King Kais planet. Anyone can jump down into hell, and if you want to get outta hell you have to have fly? That way we have it all confusing, yet interesting and a little bit of a story for everyone. And evil players can start in Hell and reap the benefits from Hell right away, and people in the middle can try to push each other off the road :D Just an idea, im tired and making stuff up to make the underworld interesting.

[AkuTenshi]

I agree, Kaioken and Spirit Bomb can only be taught by King Kai. AND they should be only with really high alignment, so that people take forever to get it. Maybe instead of evil people having something similar to Kaioken, they can have the move "negative karma" or whatever Omega Shenron used on the world. This move could LOWER a pl by a certain % to anyone not evil. So the super good can have something to boost their pl (solely their own) and the evil can have a way to lower the % pls of everyone in a battle. Which would even out the game/make it intersting and difficult. And no one would know who had what move, so it would keep everyone guessing :D

[Syaoran]

i think a move to lower everyone else's pl in a fight is a bit much, one opponent perhapes but multiple targets like that is overkill to me.

[Mado]

I like the idea of the negative karma move. Anyone with an alignment of -8 or greater can learn it. Although I would like all players to start out in the same place in the other world, that being the place with King Yemma. From there, players would be separated into where they go. If you're between +7.99 and -7.99 you can choose to go to hell, King Kai's, or just stay there and have a chance to participate in the Other World Tournament, but if you go to King Kai's you can't learn Spirit Bomb or Kaiouken, and if you go to hell you can't learn negative karma. If you're +8 or higher you can go where ever, but you can't learn negative karma, and you can learn Spirit Bomb and Kaiouken. If you're -8 or lower, you can go where ever, but you can't learn Spirit Bomb or Kaiouken, but you can learn negative karma if you go to hell.

[Mado]

i think a move to lower everyone else's pl in a fight is a bit much, one opponent perhapes but multiple targets like that is overkill to me.

Right, perhaps it could halve the effect of any multiplier move, or bring an opponent's powerlevel down to 75% of their base or something...?

[Epyon]

So if the evil and good folks are getting their own moves and benefits because of their alignment, what are you going to do for the neutral folks?

[Reno]

Do we really want to reward the evil players? I thought their reward was what they made while alive. Obviously if you're evil you can make a lot more credits, items, powerlevel, whatever. I always thought spirit bomb was like the counter to this for good guys. Good guys don't make much while alive, but they do get access to spirit bomb to fight the powerful evil guys.
Only giving good people kaioken, and making it only teachable by the king kai himself, kind of makes things unbalanced though, so I do understand the reasoning behind this negative energy move, but do I like? Not really...heh

[Ryujin]

From what I can see being evil doesn't particularly help you gain PL.... The evil quests are no better than the good quests, and most innocent people you kill don't really give you much of a gain, unless they're masters.. In which case there are evil leaders too? I can see the benefit to some degree for getting more credits/items, but I don't think its that big of an advantage.

Tell me how lowering everyone's PL x10 is a bigger advantage than raising your own x10? I would argue that raising your own is a much better move than lowering other people's. Making it only lower their PLs by half makes it a pointless move when compared to kaiouken. I really just don't understand the logic in this thread. Aku came up with an almost balanced idea, although good players still get a decently better move, and people think the EVIL move is unbalanced???

How is a move that lowers good PLs around you, but not any EVIL players/NPCs you might be fighting, better or anywhere equal to a move that multiplies your PL giving you access to more moves if your PL is low and letting you plant saibaman that are 10x more powerful??? In my mind this makes kaiouken 10x more useful than lowering other PLs at an equal rate to kaiouken, and 100000x more useful than the nerf you guys are suggesting.

[Cloud]

Kaioken should be nerfed.

I would know. I've had it longest this round. ^_^

[Mado]

Kaioken should be nerfed.

I would know. I've had it longest this round. ^_^

Funny you say that, as I already nerfed it ;)

[Mado]

From what I can see being evil doesn't particularly help you gain PL.... The evil quests are no better than the good quests, and most innocent people you kill don't really give you much of a gain, unless they're masters.. In which case there are evil leaders too? I can see the benefit to some degree for getting more credits/items, but I don't think its that big of an advantage.

Tell me how lowering everyone's PL x10 is a bigger advantage than raising your own x10? I would argue that raising your own is a much better move than lowering other people's. Making it only lower their PLs by half makes it a pointless move when compared to kaiouken. I really just don't understand the logic in this thread. Aku came up with an almost balanced idea, although good players still get a decently better move, and people think the EVIL move is unbalanced???

How is a move that lowers good PLs around you, but not any EVIL players/NPCs you might be fighting, better or anywhere equal to a move that multiplies your PL giving you access to more moves if your PL is low and letting you plant saibaman that are 10x more powerful??? In my mind this makes kaiouken 10x more useful than lowering other PLs at an equal rate to kaiouken, and 100000x more useful than the nerf you guys are suggesting.

I don't know how Quinko is doing it, but I did have a line of quests for players who chose to be evil. Only one player chose to do the quests...and they were easier than any of the "good" quests. Not only were they easier, but the rewards were better. You could learn better moves with far less effort. Sadly, no one took advantage of this. I had two players do some of the quests, neither finished them.

[Epyon]

I don't know how Quinko is doing it, but I did have a line of quests for players who chose to be evil. Only one player chose to do the quests...and they were easier than any of the "good" quests. Not only were they easier, but the rewards were better. You could learn better moves with far less effort. Sadly, no one took advantage of this. I had two players do some of the quests, neither finished them.

Well, excuse us for being good guys.

[Mado]

So if the evil and good folks are getting their own moves and benefits because of their alignment, what are you going to do for the neutral folks?

What do you suggest?

[Epyon]

What do you suggest?

It depends on if we've made a final decision on what's going on for the good and the bad, but it should definitely be on par with the two moves. Maybe they could just choose which they'd like better, who knows. My point, though, is that if people are getting stuff depending on their alignment being really good or evil, there needs to be something for the middle-grounders simply for the sake of balance.

[Syaoran]

why have moves for neutral people? the reward for being good or bad is moves, being neutral you have neither as your not part of any cause

[Epyon]

why have moves for neutral people? the reward for being good or bad is moves, being neutral you have neither as your not part of any cause

But the idea was to give evil people a move to balance it all out. I though we were going for balance. If that's not the case, then I guess there's no reason to.

[Ryujin]

I hate the idea of only being able to use a move based on good/bad alignment. I have no problem with having to have either a certain +/- to get a move that requires a more 'pure' heart one way or the other, but it should be available on both sides of the spectrum.

I like Aku's move idea. It could easily be implented like so: Good guys go to King Kai and learn kaiouken, bad guys go to hell and learn the move Aku came up with. Anyone can learn either move if they find someone (aka a player, an advanced scouter, or if a ref gave it to another NPC) who teaches it.

To go to hell you need any amount of negative alignment. To go to King Kai, you need any amount of positive alignment. If you are completely neutral (0alignment) you should either go to King kai or get a choice. This gives both sides the ability to learn the other move through absorb (androids), advanced scouters, friends, or perhaps very high level quests.

Only one of the moves may be used at a time, per fight. You can only use one or the other one time during a single fight. So you can know 'negative karma' and kaiouken, but only one may be used at a time. Perhaps if you're good and manage to acquire the move it uses 'positive karma', the move was just misnamed because only evil people had used it =] It emits an aura of whatever alignment you are. This could perhaps be the bonus of a true neutral character, for it lowering both sides' PLs. However it is nearly impossible to stay true neutral.


In my opinion this is the easiest way to implement both moves for both sides, but having each one be easier for a certain alignment to gain. This would also be the easiest way for deciding who goes to heaven/hell.

[Cloud]

I understand having to use Spirit Bomb for a good cause, but if you're an evil player and learn Kaioken from a good character there should be no restriction.

[Syaoran]

im still of the opinion that only king kai should bealbe to teach it

[Mado]

im still of the opinion that only king kai should bealbe to teach it

Me too. Does everyone else disagree?

[Syaoran]

i'm assuming so since they keep mentioning learning kaioken from another player or such

[Ryujin]

I don't necessarily think other NPCs should be able to teach it, but I have no idea why it should be unteachable from player to player, or via advanced scouters or android absorb...

Edit: I thought our game philosophy was letting players do what they can through the game rules. Why would we start changing certain moves to be unlearnable or have races abilities or items not work with them?

[Cloud]

I think learning it from another player is okay, but for a long time now I've thought that learning moves from a player instead of a master should take longer. Two days instead of one. It will encourage players to look for the master and do quests. It also makes sense because even though you know the move, it doesn't mean you know it and can teach it as well as a master does.

[Mado]

I think learning it from another player is okay, but for a long time now I've thought that learning moves from a player instead of a master should take longer. Two days instead of one. It will encourage players to look for the master and do quests. It also makes sense because even though you know the move, it doesn't mean you know it and can teach it as well as a master does.

I agree.

[Mado]

But the idea was to give evil people a move to balance it all out. I though we were going for balance. If that's not the case, then I guess there's no reason to.

My current opinion is that if you stay relatively neutral, then you gain no benefits. If a player works hard (and believe me, it will take A LOT of work) to achieve a very high, or very low, alignment, then they deserve the rewards for that.

[Epyon]

My current opinion is that if you stay relatively neutral, then you gain no benefits. If a player works hard (and believe me, it will take A LOT of work) to achieve a very high, or very low, alignment, then they deserve the rewards for that.

What if someone works really hard to stay neutral?

[Reno]

Neutral sounds a lot like evil to me. You do evil things, then you do good things so that you won't be considered evil. The benefit from being neutral is that good players won't take you out for being evil, and you won't have to suffer the penalty the evil characters get when they die.

[Mado]

What if someone works really hard to stay neutral?

If you're working THAT hard to be neutral, Reno is right, that means that you are doing an equal combination of both evil and good things, meaning you get small benefits of each. I'm not going to make Kaiouken unteachable by players, but I am still keeping it so that a player needs an alignment of +8 before King Kai will teach them the move, so it will still be hard for a player to learn. So if you're that dead set on being neutral, I hope you have friends, or friends of friends that are good/evil enough to have learned alignment-specific techniques.

[Reno]

Teaching an evil member moves (Kaioken is what I had in mind, but any move really) or giving him items, basically helping him out, is pretty shady of a good guy. Perhaps you could lose some alignment for that. Letting an evil guy live is worthy of good alignment, but actually helping them out by teaching moves is a little different.
Then again, the players would probably try to play it off like they never met the guy or didn't know they were evil...

Perhaps we could tell an evil aura and a good aura? If you get to +5 or above it becomes obvious to people just by sencing your "ki" that you are a good guy. And same for evil, when you reach -5 and below it becomes obvious that you're evil. Honestly I can't remember if that was ever done in DBZ, it sounds firmiliar though. "I sence a dark energy comming this way..."

[Mado]

Teaching an evil member moves (Kaioken is what I had in mind, but any move really) or giving him items, basically helping him out, is pretty shady of a good guy. Perhaps you could lose some alignment for that. Letting an evil guy live is worthy of good alignment, but actually helping them out by teaching moves is a little different.
Then again, the players would probably try to play it off like they never met the guy or didn't know they were evil...

Perhaps we could tell an evil aura and a good aura? If you get to +5 or above it becomes obvious to people just by sencing your "ki" that you are a good guy. And same for evil, when you reach -5 and below it becomes obvious that you're evil. Honestly I can't remember if that was ever done in DBZ, it sounds firmiliar though. "I sence a dark energy comming this way..."

That sounds like a good idea to me. Although I would still say "normal" NPC's (shopkeepers, etc.) can't tell the difference.

[Mado]

Any more thoughts/ideas, or are we set?

[Ryujin]

Eh, personally I hate all of this and think you're ruining half of the fun with good/evil and confusing people, tricking people, etc. That aura idea is horrendous in my opinion. I still don't like alignment based moves either.

[Ryujin]

On second thought and not in such a pessimistic thought process, I don't mind the +8 for King Kai teaching Kaiouken, as long as there is the -8 for learning 'negative karma' or whatever we're calling the move. I also still think both sides should be able to learn both moves from players, but if they have both only be able to use one per fight.

I don't think I like it taking 2 days to learn from a player. I think enough time is already detracted from the game for learning moves.

[Mado]

On second thought and not in such a pessimistic thought process, I don't mind the +8 for King Kai teaching Kaiouken, as long as there is the -8 for learning 'negative karma' or whatever we're calling the move. I also still think both sides should be able to learn both moves from players, but if they have both only be able to use one per fight.

I don't think I like it taking 2 days to learn from a player. I think enough time is already detracted from the game for learning moves.

I already decided we'll still let players learn from other players, no matter the move. But I still want to keep the +8 alignment required for learning Kaiouken from King Kai. I'm still not 100% set on the 'negative karma' move though.

[Mado]

Eh, personally I hate all of this and think you're ruining half of the fun with good/evil and confusing people, tricking people, etc. That aura idea is horrendous in my opinion. I still don't like alignment based moves either.

I agree to a certain extent, but I think it'd be cool if once you reached a certain alignment that people could feel your 'good' or 'bad' ki. Perhaps it could just be at +10 or -10? You can't feel it unless they're pure.

[Ryujin]

It would be fine with me if they could feel it at +/-10 and only when your PL is NOT hidden.

[Sephiroth]

I was thinking about this at the beginning of the round when a few people died and got Kaiouken and Spirit Bomb so early on...something needs to change. My original thought was to make people have to find a 'golden' sensu or something...make it extremely hard to get your powerlevel back up. But with the auto-training and everything, this would be hard to implement. Maybe make it so that unless you have an alignment of at least +5, you can't go to King Kai's? I would also like to come up with a 'Hell' for players with an alignment of -5 or higher, but I haven't seen any dbz episodes with hell in them, so I'm not sure how it would be implemented. Ideas?

I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Currently, death ends after 7 days, right? Well, when Goku died for the first time, even with his great speed it took him awhile to get to King Kai's. I think it'd be hard to quantify speed through power level, but you could. If someone had a power level of 1,000-10,000 you could say they don't have the speed to get there in just a day or two - it could take them up to 5 days, or 6 days. This would help prevent people from getting those moves too early and slow them down from training too much while in the afterlife (which isn't there to be some huge reward - it means you did something wrong or weren't strong enough).

[Mado]

I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Currently, death ends after 7 days, right? Well, when Goku died for the first time, even with his great speed it took him awhile to get to King Kai's. I think it'd be hard to quantify speed through power level, but you could. If someone had a power level of 1,000-10,000 you could say they don't have the speed to get there in just a day or two - it could take them up to 5 days, or 6 days. This would help prevent people from getting those moves too early and slow them down from training too much while in the afterlife (which isn't there to be some huge reward - it means you did something wrong or weren't strong enough).

I've already been doing that:) I've made it so no matter your powerlevel, it takes five days to run Snake Way. They gain a good amount of powerlevel from running it. If they know fly, they can fly it in three days, gaining some powerlevel, but not as much as if they ran it. I plan on sticking to that next round, that way even if they fly to King Kai's, they're not learning moves and training in 10x gravity for seven days straight.

[Reno]

If you go below zero (0) powerlevel while in the Next Dimension, then you must start all over again.

What is this for? I don't think any ref has ever allowed fighting on king kai's planet, most players don't even try.
I was thinking about for next round... You should be allowed to fight other players in Hell. Sounds like fun. Maybe the good guys on king kais planet could take a visit to Hell and risk their own lives, but that's kinda pushing it.

EDIT: Hey, maybe you could change it to if you go below zero powerlevel while dead, your death penalty becomes 99% at the end of your week, or maybe you go back to starting powerlevel for your race. That way you keep your character, people you met, moves, whatever. "Starting over"/get deleted sounds little harsh.

[Cloud]

I never really liked the idea of training yourself to death. Who in their right mind would train until they kill themselves? I've always thought maybe instead there could be a penalty when overtraining / overexerting yourself like you pass out for 3 days. I know it is the typical rest period, yeah, but at least while you're resting you can still move and do stuff. Eating a sensu wouldn't fix this either because you're unconscious and it makes you terribly susceptible to an attack. The ref would make sure to let anyone in the same area know that you're out. Think it's better than death. Just a thought.

[Reno]

I agree. It would be like a character that's asleep. Anyone could steal from them and attacks do extra damage or whatever.

[Mado]

What is this for? I don't think any ref has ever allowed fighting on king kai's planet, most players don't even try.
I was thinking about for next round... You should be allowed to fight other players in Hell. Sounds like fun. Maybe the good guys on king kais planet could take a visit to Hell and risk their own lives, but that's kinda pushing it.

EDIT: Hey, maybe you could change it to if you go below zero powerlevel while dead, your death penalty becomes 99% at the end of your week, or maybe you go back to starting powerlevel for your race. That way you keep your character, people you met, moves, whatever. "Starting over"/get deleted sounds little harsh.

Hmm...maybe 60% of your base taken away if you die while dead? Or 80%...99% seems a bit much if we're going to change it at all.

I never really liked the idea of training yourself to death. Who in their right mind would train until they kill themselves? I've always thought maybe instead there could be a penalty when overtraining / overexerting yourself like you pass out for 3 days. I know it is the typical rest period, yeah, but at least while you're resting you can still move and do stuff. Eating a sensu wouldn't fix this either because you're unconscious and it makes you terribly susceptible to an attack. The ref would make sure to let anyone in the same area know that you're out. Think it's better than death. Just a thought.

I agree. It would be like a character that's asleep. Anyone could steal from them and attacks do extra damage or whatever.

Okay, that works. Three days of rest with no activity.

[Reno]

60% sounds good.

What is the death penalty going to be next round?

Right now:
free
free
free
free
free
-5%
-10%
-15%
-20%
-25%
-30%
-35%
-40%
-45%
-50% for there on out.


We discussed this somewhere else, but I never heard any offical numbers.
I suggested no free detahs and up the lose percent to something like this:
-10%
-20%
-30%
-40%
-50% for there on out.

You should still be gaining powerlevel, even at 50% lose, at the end of your week.

[Mado]

60% sounds good.

What is the death penalty going to be next round?

Right now:
free
free
free
free
free
-5%
-10%
-15%
-20%
-25%
-30%
-35%
-40%
-45%
-50% for there on out.


We discussed this somewhere else, but I never heard any offical numbers.
I suggested no free detahs and up the lose percent to something like this:
-10%
-20%
-30%
-40%
-50% for there on out.

You should still be gaining powerlevel, even at 50% lose, at the end of your week.

That sounds good to me. Maybe even raise it?
-10%
-20%
-50%
-75% for there on out.

[Reno]

-75%? Then wouldn't that put dying back up to say...99%?

[Mado]

-75%? Then wouldn't that put dying back up to say...99%?

I dunno, I was just throwing that out there. What do you think? Is 10, 20, 50, 75 for dying and 99 for dying while dead too much?

[Reno]

hmmm
How much pl will you potentialy be able to gain while dead next round? Are we going to be able to barely double our pl's or will be getting like x10 our pl's at the end?
The loss for dying percent doesn't really matter if the pl gains we get during our week aren't took into consideration.

[Mado]

hmmm
How much pl will you potentialy be able to gain while dead next round? Are we going to be able to barely double our pl's or will be getting like x10 our pl's at the end?
The loss for dying percent doesn't really matter if the pl gains we get during our week aren't took into consideration.

Dunno if you noticed or not, Reno, but I quoted this and started a thread in the Refs & Mods Only board.

[Rikter]

Just to amuse myself this is what I was thinking of just now. Neutral players should ther The Equalizer, an attack or sword that does more damage to players that are futher away from neutral they are :)
Ok, but a serious thought I had rolling around in my head. What if someone decides to be good, gets to +8, learns kaioken, and then decides to be the most evil MoFo in the land and gets negative karma as well? Just a thought...
Maybe we should just have kaioken be taught by an evil master as well, it could look different and just be labeled Kaioken (Evil) and the other could be Kaioken (Good). The visual aspect would change but the skill would not. What do you think?

[Rikter]

[QUOTE=Rikter;1940]Just to amuse myself this is what I was thinking of just now. Neutral players should ther The Equalizer, an attack or sword that does more damage to players that are futher away from neutral they are :)QUOTE]

Wow that was a horrible display of trying to construct a sentance.

[Mado]

Just to amuse myself this is what I was thinking of just now. Neutral players should ther The Equalizer, an attack or sword that does more damage to players that are futher away from neutral they are :)
Ok, but a serious thought I had rolling around in my head. What if someone decides to be good, gets to +8, learns kaioken, and then decides to be the most evil MoFo in the land and gets negative karma as well? Just a thought...
Maybe we should just have kaioken be taught by an evil master as well, it could look different and just be labeled Kaioken (Evil) and the other could be Kaioken (Good). The visual aspect would change but the skill would not. What do you think?

It's harder to become +8 good than it is to become -8 evil. So a player would've had to work very hard just to get the alignment required for Kaiouken. If they then decide to go evil, that's fine, you can do whatever you want. But if we let evil players learn Kaiouken as well, then what's the reward for trying so hard to be good?

[Reno]

I was going to say we should just remove kaioken (Isn't that my answer for every move? haha) from the game, but I think it will be much better as a reward for very Good players when they die.
I'm really not a big fan of the negative move to "balance" things out, because being evil is a lot easier and more rewarding already, so having kaioken initialy only taught by king kai for the good alignment people is the balance maker of sorts. Kaioken, however, is a game breaking move right now...So I hope the "nerfs" it receives make it less godly, but still remains true to the show and a good move. That way there won't even have to be a negative move or evil kaioken version.
Kaioken can still be taught from player to player right? Once a few goodies get ahold of kaioken, it will spread out to others. No doubt about it.

[Mado]

I was going to say we should just remove kaioken (Isn't that my answer for every move? haha) from the game, but I think it will be much better as a reward for very Good players when they die.
I'm really not a big fan of the negative move to "balance" things out, because being evil is a lot easier and more rewarding already, so having kaioken initialy only taught by king kai for the good alignment people is the balance maker of sorts. Kaioken, however, is a game breaking move right now...So I hope the "nerfs" it receives make it less godly, but still remains true to the show and a good move. That way there won't even have to be a negative move or evil kaioken version.
Kaioken can still be taught from player to player right? Once a few goodies get ahold of kaioken, it will spread out to others. No doubt about it.

Right. Ryujin came up with a good idea for the Negative Karma move, making it good, but not anywhere near as good as Kaiouken.

Negative/Positive Karma can be learned by anybody, but is only taught in hell for less than -4.99 alignment. This move lowers the PL of everyone around you who is of the opposite alignment. Neutral characters are lowered by either alignment doing this. Every +/-2 your alignment is, changes this by a factor of 1:
+/-2: 1.5x multiplier
+/-4: 2x multiplier
+/-6: 3x multiplier
+/-8: 4x multiplier
+/-10: 5x multiplier
Requires 5,000 PL to use. Higher strength also increases the multiplier.
100,000 PL increases by a factor of 1x
500,000 PL increases by a factor of 2x
2,500,000 PL increases by a factor of 3x
5,000,000 PL increases by a factor of 4x
25,000,000 PL increases by a factor of 5x
Multipliers between PL and alignment simply add together. 500,000 PL and -6 alignment would give you a multiplier of 5x. This makes it more difficult to max than kaiouken, but a more interesting mix of alignment/PL requirements.

[Reno]

Nice, nice.

I heard you made some kaioken changes as well...
I was kind of suggesting completely removing the negative karma move and just making kaioken not as good as it currently is. That way the evil players aren't missing out on a whole lot, but the good players are still getting a nice reward.

Hey, ever think of making a move like kaioken take up your fighting style slot?

[Mado]

You mean so you can't use a fighting style and kaiouken at the same time?

[Reno]

Correct. Kaioken would be your fighting style instead of a move...hmmm.... Just forget that part if you don't like it, haha

So, would it be safe to assume Kaioken will be changed next round, or will it remain the same as now?

[Mado]

Correct. Kaioken would be your fighting style instead of a move...hmmm.... Just forget that part if you don't like it, haha

So, would it be safe to assume Kaioken will be changed next round, or will it remain the same as now?

Changed. I'll discuss it on the 'other' board;)

[geognisis]

This would imply that there needs to be something for the people in the middle as well, who can't go to heaven or hell. I never watched all the way through DBGT, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people in hell during the series, and maybe you could meet major villains from the series and spar and learn things with them or take over hell. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.
in gt during the super 17 saga docter mu and gero each created a 17 there power opened a rift in hell and all the villins from gokus past came to eath and tried to take over but gohan and piccolo and vegeta beat all there asses but they came back for one or two episodes