Nameks

[ssj4 Goten]

ALright, i'll be honest. Reno was right, i feel that nameks progress a little to slow after they reach around 1 mil powerlevel. All these other races seem to have some kind of bonus to help them. But around 1 mil, the nameks specialty doesn't really help much...

[Reno]

However, in the beginning, and perhaps "mid-game" namekians totally dominate. So, you could call this balance. If you're a namekian, take advantage of your incredible power early, while you still can.

[Enkidu]

I disagree with both of you. Especially when refs have been busy with life and updates were scarce, I could still meditate while others who receive bonuses in pl from fighting, gained nothing because they were not receiving updates. Namek has done me quite well. I am in the final match of the tournament after all. ;)

[ssj4 Goten]

Yeah, but once i hit over the one mil pl cap, my meditate has only given 1k. And training 12k, which includes my weighted clothing.

[geognisis]

I disagree with both of you. Especially when refs have been busy with life and updates were scarce, I could still meditate while others who receive bonuses in pl from fighting, gained nothing because they were not receiving updates. Namek has done me quite well. I am in the final match of the tournament after all. ;)

so your gonna lose to roner and i bet i could take you too !:p

[Reno]

Enkidu is a prime example of just how good namekians are. Starting late in the round, and he has surpassed many people who have been playing since day 1. However, I would not put my money on a namekian being the most powerful at the end of the round... Actually, I would probably consider namekians the worst race at the later stages of a round. Humans are in the same ball park as nameks late round, in my opinion. Although, both nameks and humans have the potential to be the best, it just takes a lot of work and strategy, like all the races do...

As far as balance goes, what do you guys think about Nameks? While we're on the subject, what do you guys think about all the races balance?

[geognisis]

Enkidu is a prime example of just how good namekians are. Starting late in the round, and he has surpassed many people who have been playing since day 1. However, I would not put my money on a namekian being the most powerful at the end of the round... Actually, I would probably consider namekians the worst race at the later stages of a round. Humans are in the same ball park as nameks late round, in my opinion. Although, both nameks and humans have the potential to be the best, it just takes a lot of work and strategy, like all the races do...

As far as balance goes, what do you guys think about Nameks? While we're on the subject, what do you guys think about all the races balance?

well i think full blood saiyans have great potential to gain strength do to their training and fight gains , but.... are less effective on planets with few updates ( not complaining at all here ) , but a saiyan gets stronger through constant battle , without battle they kinda just trudge aimlessly

[Reno]

Thanks for the input Geo. I agree, the more fights and updates, the better for a Saiyan.

I'm not sure on this really, but I would say all the planet's have had "Lazy" refs at one point or another(No reason to explain why, you guys know them). So, for this round anyway, I wouldn't say, "(Whatever planet) has had more updates than the others!" It has been pretty even as far as that goes. Sometimes one planet is getting a lot of updates, while the others are getting absolutely none, then another week it switches to the complete opposite. I know Geo wasn't complaining about this at all, he was just explaining how Saiyans gain more from fights/updates.

[Ichigo]

androids as well if they aren't fighting then they are totally useless no gains of any kind which goes hand in hand with the update thing

[Epyon]

I actually know a Namek who could rape most of you, even this late-game. They're not the best, but with the right techniques and smart playing they can still be at the top even this deep in.

[Reno]

I actually know a Namek who could rape most of you, even this late-game. They're not the best, but with the right techniques and smart playing they can still be at the top even this deep in.

I personally don't consider this "late game" right now. Sure it's not "early game", so I guess the only choice left would be something like "mid game" hahaha, unless perhaps there's a "late late game." (That just blew my mind)

I don't want to argue over something silly like wording, which probably comes down to opinion anyway. I just always thought of the end of the round being when most of the players had 5-10 deaths each. Right now, it's kind of rare, or at least uncommon, to find any player that has died one or two times. I personally can't think of any player that has died more two times. Late game? Nawwww. Just because the refs have lives and didn't update all day everyday, while some players continued to train everyday and got pretty strong, doesn't mean it's late game. I believe there's plenty to be done on all planet's, as well as players creating their own Player Versus Player sagas(You guys remember the old days, right?)

Okay, okay, sorry for being the Nazi about not wanting to end the round so much lately. At least I give reasons though. ^_^

[Epyon]

I personally don't consider this "late game" right now. Sure it's not "early game", so I guess the only choice left would be something like "mid game" hahaha, unless perhaps there's a "late late game." (That just blew my mind)

I don't want to argue over something silly like wording, which probably comes down to opinion anyway. I just always thought of the end of the round being when most of the players had 5-10 deaths each. Right now, it's kind of rare, or at least uncommon, to find any player that has died one or two times. I personally can't think of any player that has died more two times. Late game? Nawwww. Just because the refs have lives and didn't update all day everyday, while some players continued to train everyday and got pretty strong, doesn't mean it's late game. I believe there's plenty to be done on all planet's, as well as players creating their own Player Versus Player sagas(You guys remember the old days, right?)

Okay, okay, sorry for being the Nazi about not wanting to end the round so much lately. At least I give reasons though. ^_^

We have quite a few players with a good amount of deaths on their hands. Beyond that, with death rules being significantly harsher this round, I don't think anyone is going to be happy about it getting that high. Players just aren't trying to kick each others' asses like they used to either, which means generally lower death tolls. Mado has had it easy with the Other Dimension it would seem.

Regardless, after nearly a year and a half into a round, I think it's safe to call it late-game. But like I said earlier, I don't feel there's any huge impetus to start a new round except for the PL discrepancies and the fact that this one has gone on so long, especially since all major planets are still intact. Evil players seem less ambitious this round.

[Cloud]

Right? You guys realize that using up all of a planets resources(masters, quests, db's) then blowing it up when you're done so no one else can get those rewards is the cool thing to do, right?

[geognisis]

Right? You guys realize that using up all of a planets resources(masters, quests, db's) then blowing it up when you're done so no one else can get those rewards is the cool thing to do, right?

give it time !

[Reno]

...and where there is dark, there shall always be light. Wow, that sounded like a cheesey video game line. The good guys will always try to stop the bad guys from destroying the planet and it's resources is what I was trying to say.

[Reno]

We have quite a few players with a good amount of deaths on their hands. Beyond that, with death rules being significantly harsher this round, I don't think anyone is going to be happy about it getting that high. Players just aren't trying to kick each others' asses like they used to either, which means generally lower death tolls. Mado has had it easy with the Other Dimension it would seem.

Regardless, after nearly a year and a half into a round, I think it's safe to call it late-game. But like I said earlier, I don't feel there's any huge impetus to start a new round except for the PL discrepancies and the fact that this one has gone on so long, especially since all major planets are still intact. Evil players seem less ambitious this round.

Ah, well that's cool. I like to hear about people dying. A game isn't fun if you're always in god mode, right?
I'm sure no one would be "happy" when they die, spend a week in the next dimension, and then come back to life with less powerlevel than they had before dying(And not to mention the sensu bean torture). The death rules we created for this round were not intended to make the player that dies a lot happy, obviously, it's supposed to be a punishment!
I understand players have not been kickin' each others asses a lot this round, and really I have no problem with that. The players make their own decisions. It might happen a lot more in the future though. I'm sure Mado, the current other world ref, has enjoyed it though hahaha.

I agree with all of your second paragraph also. "Evil players seem less ambitious this round" is so true as well. In fact, last round didn't have many evil people either. I can remember..."Back In The Day"... when every single player was evil. Being good was, well, unheard of. A player might do "good" things sometimes, or kill "evil" saga bosses, but for the most part it was for personal gain, period. Players now like to role play a lot more, and being good is the new trend. Being good this round also has some neat benefits, but overall I believe being evil always has better benefits.


Oh, and I know this round has been going for over a year. I can't remember one round in all of PM's history that even lasted 9 months to be honest(Although could be wrong on that). 6 months even sounds like a long time. And that's why we created certain rules for this current round, such as the harsh death penalty. The intent, besides punishing those that die a lot, was to make it so the round could last a very long time. You start weak, you get strong, you die a lot and now you're weak again. People underestimate the moves detect powerlevel, fly, and hide powerlevel. They are some of the most important moves in the game when it comes to Player Versus Player. ;) ;)

[Hyperion]

Something comparable for nameks late game.
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Giant_Form

Maybe a lesser form of Oozaro.

Also I was looking at meditation and thought that the drop points need to be adjusted somewhat. Moving up a bracket shouldn't give such a stiff penalty. L

So here is the chart based on just prior gains to after swap gains.
0-9,999 powerlevel = 2% gain at 9999 then 199.8
10,000-99,999 powerlevel = 1% gain at 10k then only 100 at 99.9k then 999
100,000-299,999 powerlevel = .5% gain at 100k get only 500 at 299k then 1499
300,000-799,999 powerlevel = .25% gain at 300k then 750pl at 799k then 1999
800,000+ powerlevel = .1% gain at 800k then 800pl

You could make it like taxes, where you get the bonus from the previous base in addition.
So at 10,000 to 99,999 you get 1% + max benefit of the 0-9,999 class of 199.8

Actually, to make it more fair, probably 1/2 max benefit + % bonus. This will even the PL curve for nameks using meditation instead of hitting blunt drops in effectiveness. To account for the strength at later PLs with the change, I'd reduce the early level to just 1.5% and adjust accordingly.

[Xersos]

Well i didn't play the game long so i don't know about Namek i only know that they can be the best race if they are played god since they can learn the most skills then others. As for the Death penalty i agree that it is harsh i died 2 times and i didn't find any senzu bean so i was at half of my pl. But i am hoping that they will change that into something different, if i think of anything i will post it. As for the player vs player, they could add bounty in the game, i got this idea from a manga, that way the players would kill others or if they are good capture or something else, and they gaing good rewards like credits, items...

[Reno]

As for the player vs player, they could add bounty in the game, i got this idea from a manga, that way the players would kill others or if they are good capture or something else, and they gaing good rewards like credits, items...

This can def be added to the game, and prob has been before. It's ultimately up the planet's ref to decide things like this though, meaning Mado prob won't force the refs to have a bounty hunter system(Although he could encourage it).

[Xersos]

It dosnt need to be forcefull, player will have his own will if he is going to use it, or they can put bount on someone else.

[Reno]

I just meant have it's up to the ref to include an NPC that gives the bounty hunter mission, and how they go about doing it.

Actually, players can always put a bounty on another on the forums without the ref including it in their planet via an NPC. "Anyone that kills Xersos will get a reward of 10,000 credits."

[Ichigo]

It dosnt need to be forcefull, player will have his own will if he is going to use it, or they can put bount on someone else.

this has been used on me in the past lol so its here.

Something comparable for nameks late game.
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Giant_Form

Maybe a lesser form of Oozaro.

Also I was looking at meditation and thought that the drop points need to be adjusted somewhat. Moving up a bracket shouldn't give such a stiff penalty. L

So here is the chart based on just prior gains to after swap gains.
0-9,999 powerlevel = 2% gain at 9999 then 199.8
10,000-99,999 powerlevel = 1% gain at 10k then only 100 at 99.9k then 999
100,000-299,999 powerlevel = .5% gain at 100k get only 500 at 299k then 1499
300,000-799,999 powerlevel = .25% gain at 300k then 750pl at 799k then 1999
800,000+ powerlevel = .1% gain at 800k then 800pl

You could make it like taxes, where you get the bonus from the previous base in addition.
So at 10,000 to 99,999 you get 1% + max benefit of the 0-9,999 class of 199.8

Actually, to make it more fair, probably 1/2 max benefit + % bonus. This will even the PL curve for nameks using meditation instead of hitting blunt drops in effectiveness. To account for the strength at later PLs with the change, I'd reduce the early level to just 1.5% and adjust accordingly.

if we give them anymore pl for meditation (which heals them as well) then no one would be able to catch up. Nameks are by far the strongest race if they train, meditate and do quests they could easily be on the secondary planets before anyone. the numbers for meditate will probably wont go up.

[Epyon]

this has been used on me in the past lol so its here.



if we give them anymore pl for meditation (which heals them as well) then no one would be able to catch up. Nameks are by far the strongest race if they train, meditate and do quests they could easily be on the secondary planets before anyone. the numbers for meditate will probably wont go up.

They're not the strongest except in the very, very early game. The races all have their trade-offs and for Nameks it's being strong early and not having to stop and rest/use healing items as much due to meditate. After other races start getting transformations or Androids get strong enough for fight and absorb more, then they quickly can be surpassed.

[Mado]

Something comparable for nameks late game.
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Giant_Form

Maybe a lesser form of Oozaro.

Also I was looking at meditation and thought that the drop points need to be adjusted somewhat. Moving up a bracket shouldn't give such a stiff penalty. L

So here is the chart based on just prior gains to after swap gains.
0-9,999 powerlevel = 2% gain at 9999 then 199.8
10,000-99,999 powerlevel = 1% gain at 10k then only 100 at 99.9k then 999
100,000-299,999 powerlevel = .5% gain at 100k get only 500 at 299k then 1499
300,000-799,999 powerlevel = .25% gain at 300k then 750pl at 799k then 1999
800,000+ powerlevel = .1% gain at 800k then 800pl

You could make it like taxes, where you get the bonus from the previous base in addition.
So at 10,000 to 99,999 you get 1% + max benefit of the 0-9,999 class of 199.8

Actually, to make it more fair, probably 1/2 max benefit + % bonus. This will even the PL curve for nameks using meditation instead of hitting blunt drops in effectiveness. To account for the strength at later PLs with the change, I'd reduce the early level to just 1.5% and adjust accordingly.

It is a steep dropoff, and we could adjust it, but from what I saw last round, Namekian players (who meditated and trained like clockwork) were the strongest after about a month in, and stayed that way for at least the next six months. Aku was a Namek last round, and he was the strongest until his updates got slowed down a lot, and he stopped meditating and self training as consistently.

[Mado]

They're not the strongest except in the very, very early game. The races all have their trade-offs and for Nameks it's being strong early and not having to stop and rest/use healing items as much due to meditate. After other races start getting transformations or Androids get strong enough for fight and absorb more, then they quickly can be surpassed.

A great player can take any race and dominate. I see it every round. For instance, I'd never seen a Devil ever be competitive, much less close to be the strongest, but Reno was very close to be the strongest player for quite a while last round.

That being said, it makes it extremely difficult to make sure the races are balanced. However, I think the races are all really well balanced right now. With the exception of the new Infinite Ki Androids, that is. We'll have to wait and see, but I think they'll work out well.

[Makosoldier]

I guess now with the reset everyOne will be back to square one, I particularly enjoyed traing with namekians...but a question would it ever be possible to learn meditate to a lesser extent that goku does?

[Mado]

I guess now with the reset everyOne will be back to square one, I particularly enjoyed traing with namekians...but a question would it ever be possible to learn meditate to a lesser extent that goku does?

I don't recall from the show what you're talking about, but no other players have a way to gain PL without fighting/sparring/training.

[Hyperion]

Maybe you could flatten out the PL rise in the beginning and alter it up a bit more toward the tail end to keep it balanced. I just don't think it makes sense to gain 200 PL at 9999 and only 100 PL at 10000. By adding the previous ranks bonus it will keep the PL curve more even throughout. This way it makes them less powerful from the start but don't fall off as sharply late game. (I know I haven't played a round yet, I'm just throwing out ideas)

Maybe 1.5% / 1.25% /0.75% /.50%/ .25% + 1/2 the previous ranges max bonus?

[Reno]

For the most part, the stronger you are the less pl you gain (Or you have to risk being in a fight). This allows people who start late, or did something other than training/fighting in the beginning, to catch up.

[Ichigo]

Self training sucks after a while. Doing quests and fighting is where the real money is at man. After you reach a certain point self training is really obsolete in comparison to the quests or just running around finding random people to fight. lol :P

[Teen Gohan]

I don't recall from the show what you're talking about, but no other players have a way to gain PL without fighting/sparring/training.

I'm pretty sure he is referring to this: http://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/goku_meditate_full_lotus_episode_208.jpg

It happens right before The World Martial Arts tournament, the one right before Majin Buu (The 25th if I am not mistaken). Not like I am agreeing with giving Saiyan/Halfies the ability to mediate I'm just saying that is probably where he got it.

Maybe you could flatten out the PL rise in the beginning and alter it up a bit more toward the tail end to keep it balanced. I just don't think it makes sense to gain 200 PL at 9999 and only 100 PL at 10000. By adding the previous ranks bonus it will keep the PL curve more even throughout. This way it makes them less powerful from the start but don't fall off as sharply late game. (I know I haven't played a round yet, I'm just throwing out ideas)

Maybe 1.5% / 1.25% /0.75% /.50%/ .25% + 1/2 the previous ranges max bonus?

It actually kind of does make sense to get less gain from something you have done several times over. Even more so when it comes to something like training. Unless you can push yourself beyond the previous limit then your gains should be rather minimal, this does apply to DBZ a lot. I honestly don't think they need a change, mostly because I have seen first hand how much a couple dedicated Namekians can do. Enkidu and Maetrix I am talking about you guys, they started fairly late in the round and both did really well in the tournament. If I am not mistaken Enkidu took second. And I think we are all aware of how strong Aku got.

[Reno]

I'm pretty sure he is referring to this: http://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/goku_meditate_full_lotus_episode_208.jpg

It happens right before The World Martial Arts tournament, the one right before Majin Buu (The 25th if I am not mistaken). Not like I am agreeing with giving Saiyan/Halfies the ability to mediate I'm just saying that is probably where he got it.



It actually kind of does make sense to get less gain from something you have done several times over. Even more so when it comes to something like training. Unless you can push yourself beyond the previous limit then your gains should be rather minimal, this does apply to DBZ a lot. I honestly don't think they need a change, mostly because I have seen first hand how much a couple dedicated Namekians can do. Enkidu and Maetrix I am talking about you guys, they started fairly late in the round and both did really well in the tournament. If I am not mistaken Enkidu took second. And I think we are all aware of how strong Aku got.

I agree. The numbers have been tested and played with the past few rounds and they all seem really good. If any training/meditating gains need to altered, I wouldn't even know where to start or how to go about it, so I would ask Ryujin. I believe he did the most work with them and gave us all kinds of charts on them.
As far as nameks go in a whole, they do kind of get screwed late-game, especially when a lot of the other races have transformations that not only multiply their current/base powerlevels, but also give them insane gains from winning fights versus insanely strong NPC's(Which in turn are multipled when they transform). Balancing races in PM is not something where we try to make every single race equal at all parts in the game.

[Reno]

Oh, as far as the saiyan/goku thing meditating, that could be something like a one-time-deal as a reward from an NPC. Depends on how creative the ref wants to be really, but I feel it has no place being a permanent thing for non-nameks.

[Xersos]

I agree with the meditation, Goku only use it once, and where did you see that a Saiyan is meditaing, make it quest reward or something like that.

[Ryujin]

I did a spreadsheet adjusting mediation numbers comparing Namekians to a few different races up to a few million PL, including the other races training constantrly, Nammekians meditating constantly, and a moderate number of fights over certain time intervals. They should end up ahead of the races that start stronger (duugos) and between Namekians and Saiyans/Halfies it should at least be competitive late game. I believe an Android, Saiyan, or Halfie that gets into fights constantly will be higher PL than a Namekian in the end, but there are points where they won't be able to be close.

Not all races are equal, but all races have advantages that allow them to be at the top if played smartly.

Transformations give certain races large advantages late game as well, but if a person takes enough of an advantage early on, there is a possibility transformations won't be enough to stop them.

[Ichigo]

I did a spreadsheet adjusting mediation numbers comparing Namekians to a few different races up to a few million PL, including the other races training constantrly, Nammekians meditating constantly, and a moderate number of fights over certain time intervals. They should end up ahead of the races that start stronger (duugos) and between Namekians and Saiyans/Halfies it should at least be competitive late game. I believe an Android, Saiyan, or Halfie that gets into fights constantly will be higher PL than a Namekian in the end, but there are points where they won't be able to be close.

Not all races are equal, but all races have advantages that allow them to be at the top if played smartly.

Transformations give certain races large advantages late game as well, but if a person takes enough of an advantage early on, there is a possibility transformations won't be enough to stop them.

Plus the transformations aren't just given out like candy there hard to obtain . So in the end even if you choose sayians you may be weaker than a namekian or another race.

[AkuTenshi]

My personal opinion is that nameks are great in the beginning, however they definitely taper off at the end. No matter how much I loved being a namek, and I think I did OK at playing, I still feel like my character was only as good as I could weasel.

I believe that Nameks need a transformation, and Ive argued that since day 1, before ryu and I started working on building formulas to play with the numbers. I think nameks need either a transformation. Nameks do have some ways of getting very strong, but the chances of them happening are slim. Same with humans, though technology definitely increases their play-ability.

Making these characters "side characters" could be useful, giving them abilities to affect teams in a fight could be helpful. Allowing humans to fix weapons could also be an interesting addition, though I feel both answers would make PM very complicated.

Enough with my rambling, I just thought I should put my two-cents in on Nameks since I had tested them the past two rounds.

[Epyon]

After seeing the spreadsheets put out, I'm of the opinion Nameks are completely fine. The spreadsheet simply solidified my position.

[Reno]

My personal opinion is that nameks are great in the beginning, however they definitely taper off at the end. No matter how much I loved being a namek, and I think I did OK at playing, I still feel like my character was only as good as I could weasel.

I believe that Nameks need a transformation, and Ive argued that since day 1, before ryu and I started working on building formulas to play with the numbers. I think nameks need either a transformation. Nameks do have some ways of getting very strong, but the chances of them happening are slim. Same with humans, though technology definitely increases their play-ability.

Making these characters "side characters" could be useful, giving them abilities to affect teams in a fight could be helpful. Allowing humans to fix weapons could also be an interesting addition, though I feel both answers would make PM very complicated.

Enough with my rambling, I just thought I should put my two-cents in on Nameks since I had tested them the past two rounds.


I personally think you played the best Namek I have ever seen in PM. I know you kind of stopped playing/getting updates many times during the round, and being the strongest wasn't really your main goal (I can remember a few times when you were sent out as a scout to explore the planet while your homi's stayed in a base training), but you reached a very high powerlevel without being a dick that goes around killing/slowing down the non-nameks.

I guess it depends on how the ref has his planet set up, but I think a namek could go around completely every quest before anyone even has a shot at doing them. Of course if the ref has his planet set up so that when the other players reach points in the game you have already done and they are magically back as if you never did them, this does kind of hurt the namek (or just the person in general).

[Mado]

After seeing the spreadsheets put out, I'm of the opinion Nameks are completely fine. The spreadsheet simply solidified my position.

This. Aku was the strongest by far until his updates slowed and when that happened he stopped training and meditating like clockwork (he was a machine when it came to that).

[craney]

Someone has already mentioned nameks should have a transformation, so I was wondering what use guys think about it? Because if I remember correctly they were a transformation nameks have... where the gain a unbelievably amount of height changing to a giant like creature. that increased there strength quite a bit and could do nicely to be added here if use all agree? wouldn't increase your strength tremendously like ssj and duugo transformations but it's better than nothing, right?

[Hyperion]

Yeah, I posted about it a few days ago I think.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Giant_Form

"Piccolo found the technique to be very effective against Garlic Jr., as despite his greatly increased size and strength, he did not sacrifice speed for the power-up and remained just as fast as he was before he transformed."

[Reno]

We really want most of the races to play differently. I know you guys aren't suggesting a namek's main niche be this giant form transformation, but it just seems too close to other races. Nameks play very well already, and adjusting them really isn't a main goal for anyone at this moment.

Also, I have noticed in DBZ that growing very large is usually a disadvantage (or at least not an advantage), this includes Piccolo Jr using his namek giant form against Goku in DB tournament. I believe it is again stated by Vegeto when turned into a tiny chocolate ball by Buu that size means nothing, he retains all his strength/speed (and it actually kind of gives Vegeto a bit of an advantage being smaller because it's harder to block him), so Buu changes him back.

No race can even compete with a namek early on.

[Epyon]

As has been pretty much stated, Nameks are not one of the two races we need to take a look at.